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  • Writer's pictureAlmeera Eman

Unserious Careers - How taking time to figure it out pays off in health, happiness and success

What comes to mind when you hear the word Career? Does it evoke feelings of fear, anxiousness or overwhelm? Do you perceive it as a one time decision and then you’re locked in for the next 40, 50 maybe even 60 years?! Well, what if we told you that careers don’t have to be so serious, in fact unserious careers will actually lead you to become healthier, happier and a more successful version of yourself.

On today’s episode we invited the lovely Alana Kilmartin, author of “Unserious Careers” who dives deep into the importance of self-exploration and experiential learning. Reflecting on her own career journey and how gap years were instrumental in helping her discover her true passions, take a listen!

Topics Discussed

  • Alana’s personal journey of writing her book, Unserious Careers.

  • The importance of having transparent conversations with parents/guardians around expectations (which oftentimes may be different than what you think!)

  • The reality of today is that career paths are not linear, and while this may seem daunting - it’s a beautiful opportunity for people to explore a variety of their interests.

  • Always progressing to the “next step” will not necessarily move your career in the right direction, instead getting clarity about what you actually want to do will accelerate you to where you want to go.

  • The difference between taking a year off and and taking a gap year - how can you make the most of this time.

Resources Mentioned In This Episode

Connect With The Canadian Gap Year Association


Michelle Dittmer - 00:00

Hey everybody, welcome to the Gap Year Podcast, my name is Michelle Dittmer. I am your host and Gap Year Expert. Today, we have a world famous author with us today, Alana Kilmartin is joining us she brings such a kindred spirit version of what life is really all about and just her book is so much in alignment with the world of gap years and this world of self-exploration and really jumping into the experiential learning world and how much that can mean for us and how that can shape our life.

So we're gonna have a really awesome conversation.So Alana thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Alana Kilmartin - 00:46

No thank you so much for having me. We had a brief chat beforehand and I think we're both excited to see what comes out.


Michelle Dittmer - 00:50

Alright so why don't you give us a little bit about who you are, what you stand for, tell us about your book and then we'll then we'll jump into some of the meaty stuff that you and I just love to chat about.

Alana Kilmartin - 01:05

Fantastic sounds good. So I have just released a book called Unserious Careers so maybe we'll start from that and work backwards but basically I am crazily passionate about how our careers can shape our lives and what from our from our own experience of going through the schooling system and then into University and beyond what I really realized is at school we're kind of told a whole bunch of things about work what work is going to be like but then when you get out into the real world you realize that so much of that information was either outdated or it wasn't individualized to your situation because schools are obviously sometimes underfunded and there just isn't this kind of real emphasis placed on really great career education.

So through that kind of struggling through that process going from wanting to be a doctor to having no idea what I wanted to do I recognized that there was a real lack of what do I do what are the first things I actually do when I finish school so it's all well and good to kind of sit at school and be like in 10 years time I want to do this thing I want to choose this one career path and then that's kind of going to going to be me forever but what do you actually do then if you get out of school what are those first steps that you take and if you're starting to have doubts about maybe some of those decisions that you did make at school what do you do what's what are the first steps that you take and what I really wanted to do was create a resource with this book so that a young person can be about to leave school or just finish school can read this and go here are some really great action steps I can take in the first five years of my career and the book really centers around just the first five years because I think everything beyond that is so up in the air that it's not even funny but I think when you're young you don't realize that you kind of have the stars in your eyes that I'll pick the I'll get it right the first time and then I won't need to worry about a career decision since.

So one of my actions in the book is actually take a gap year because I believe that gap years are the foundation to every career they should be and it's a bit bold but I think they should become compulsory I just am such a massive advocate for them, I love gap years so much I'm actually on a kind of I'd say it's my second proper one but it's probably my third one and I'm now 30 so that's how much I love them I just believe they're such a beautiful just a beautiful opportunity to explore the world a little bit more and learn about more about yourself and what you want so yeah I guess that's kind of overarching what I do with Unserious Careers but I've had a very varied career and have because I've been quite lost to be honest with you a lot of the way and really letting go of maybe other people's expectations of what they thought I was going to do I was quite academically gifted wanted to be a doctor so then no I want to design my life around what I enjoy have the flexibility to be out of change when I want to change but still have career progression within that so yeah it's kind of the unserious careers is a very much a passion project and it's kind of a longer-term vision and I have some ideas about what I want to take that to and but I just believe that if a young person those first five years can really sink their teeth into their career and not worry too much about finding the one job it just makes the world a difference for someone in their twenties when it can be such confusing time.

Michelle Dittmer - 04:20

Yeah I love a couple things that you said there but I want to talk about the title of the book first and foremost because those are two words unserious and career like they seem like through our traditional teaching those things don't go together like when it's time to get your career you like buckle down you do your schooling, you find the right employer with the biggest salary and you just like plug away and like there's no room for fun it's something that you do to check the box to pay the bills to make the money to get ahead that rat race that kind of moving yourself forward so can you talk a little bit about how those words came together and why that makes sense for you?

Alana Kilmartin - 05:02

Yeah so I think it really it really started so just for I could probably should give us some more context but basically when I grew up in Australia and when I finished school I took a gap year and I traveled around the world so I traveled for about three months in North America and Europe and then I lived with an Au Pair in a family so through that kind of process the reason the lead into that gap year was a boy broke up with me and I was like heartbroken which sounds so ridiculous but like the career counselor isn't talking to you about how this breakup might impact you and so I really took that gap year to escape and just to go and be away from all the reminders of that relationship which I know sounds so tragic but at the time it was like the center of my world I didn't care about my career as much like cared about getting over this guy and I think that kind of just paved the way for I'd got so serious about my career and felt like I had to become this amazing insert the blank it's something that people admired something that people looked up to it made a lot of money that kind of thing and it just felt like I was constantly chasing that thing and it felt so heavy it felt like it was like awake I just couldn't get off my shoulders this kind of like you can go and have your fun on your gap year you can go and have fun and do these random trips these random travels but one day you're going to have to decide on that career and you're gonna have to get serious about it.

And when my partner I moved to New Zealand about five years ago and we moved to New Zealand for the lifestyle because of the mountains there I grew up in a very flat part of Australia and we just went we visited there on holidays and people loved living there for the lifestyle they loved that on the weekends they could go skiing they could go mountain biking they could go out on the lake it was this it was something I just hadn't been exposed to for and I think through that process of moving to New Zealand we realized that you don't have to take your career so seriously because if you're taking it so seriously to such an extent that it ruins your enjoyment of your life and that you're not able to have fun you're not able to switch off then Kyle what's the point because as you say you are working to pay the bills but you're also working for your life you're working for your experience of life and I'd taken a job when I moved to New Zealand it was as a travel agent because I was really passionate about travel and I knew I was good at sales and that was something that you didn't need a qualification for people were thought I was crazy that I went to school with and I told them I went and became a travel agent but what ended up happening is I totally thrived in the environment because I cared about the job and it was an amazing experience and I did really well I did really well within the company in my first year in particular but of course it became so serious all of a sudden because I'd kind of set the bar for myself and then if I didn't keep meeting that bar with sales it was kind of seen like I was almost failing within the company and it got to the point where I wasn't enjoying the lifestyle even in New Zealand anymore and that was the reason why we'd moved there in the first place it's not easy moving to another country and I kind of had to take a good little hard look at myself and there would be days where I'd be crying on the way to work because I'd taken promotion I probably shouldn't have and it just truly became too serious and it just one day popped into my head this whole like unserious thing and it was this it was something that I had been almost a theme throughout my 20s but I'd never realized that's what it was and it was this kind of like I get a bit serious and then I get a bit scared and I'd be like okay I'll go and do something unserious I'll go and have some fun I'll go and move to New Zealand for to learn how to snowboard but then I get serious again and it was like oh no because I felt like I had to I felt like I had to choose that one career and then eventually I was like why can't I still have a great career why can't I still have career progression but not hold it so tightly that this is the be all and end all of my life and how can I really prioritize my daily experience of work as opposed to the 10 year time 10 years time goal or what people around me expect me to kind of go and do because if I can't enjoy work like on a daily basis and yes there's always going to be crap days but then that's such a significant chunk of time in my life that I'm not going to be happy and I just don't think I can compensate that for that for two weeks on the weekend if that makes sense.

So yeah I think it was just a theme that I kind of played with of but how can I have both how can I have a career that I like that I can have career progression in but still enjoy it and still enjoy the things outside of work that I enjoy.

Michelle Dittmer - 09:32

I love that and it resonates with me too because I went to school to be a high school science teacher and I got into the classroom and I felt that it was very confining and I left teaching and people thought I had lost my mind it's a stable career you get the summers off you get compensated appropriately and like it was in a lot of people's eyes kind of the perfect fit for me and I had to have a lot of courage and I had to fight a lot of resistance from society from my family from the people around me that said no this is this is a good job for you look at all of these benefits and I said no this isn't the right fit for me and even with the job stability leaving that to go and test out a whole bunch of other different things to find a better fit for me was the right move and now I am in alignment more with who I am because I took that risk because I had the confidence to say no I need to test the waters I I'm not where I should be and like you said that the day-to-day was a grind for me I loved it but it wasn't fulfilling in the way that I wanted to live my life and so I really respect people that have the confidence and have the awareness to be able to buck some of those trends and do it and I think to be mindful of where some people might look at this and say well you're in a very privileged spot to be able to not take those jobs and stick in them I think people just need to be aware that there are really well-paying jobs everywhere so if you are in a position of financial need this is this conversation doesn't preclude you can be involved in thistoo because just because that one thing you went to school for or that one career that your parents think you should have doesn't necessarily have to be the path there are lots of paths to success and fulfillment that can still be financially accessible to everyone.

Alana Kilmartin - 11:51

Yeah I couldn't agree anymore and it's so interesting because I feel I feel like I have at school obviously there's a lot of labeling and a lot of putting someone in a box and one discussion I know that's never really had at school around careers and even beyond in those first years is what are the practical components of that career you're considering I'm not just talking about what are you getting paid what like where you working but what is the like say for example use medicine as an example and that would involve if I went and became a doctor it's going to involve night shift that is almost unavoidable in the first ten years of my career do I want to work night shift no that's not my idea of enjoying work but there are so many realities of a job that just I think for the sake of simplicity you are just making a decision on a couple of things when you're at school and that might and your grades being probably one of them of what is your like seen as your quote unquote potential but it's not the actual reality of a job and I'll give you an example as well as my partner he studied psychology at university and his parents thought he was going to go and become the doctor or do you know do something like that around that kind of academic side of things when we moved to New Zealand he wanted to work outdoors because he loves working outdoors and he loves to do physical work it was just his it's his body's like built for it but he was kind of put into this like label of you have to do the mental work like you're meant to be in a job while you sit in an office and you tap away and all that sort of thing but he ended up becoming a greenkeeper on a golf course and he did his apprenticeship as a mature age apprenticeship and he loved it and it wasn't to say that was going to be his career forever and that's what he wanted to do for the rest of his life but that was something that he enjoyed every single day and yet he was questioned by his parents and by the people some other people around him of like almost like you're better than that but who might have kind of judged that he's better than that if he enjoys that far more than he was ever going to enjoy something where he was sitting indoors and it's not to say that he may not do that in the future but at that point in time he wanted to be outdoors so why would he not follow that because his happiness and his health is going to be far better off for that.

Michelle Dittmer - 14:01

Yeah I love that and I think that parents and their young people need to have more conversations around this and around expectations because at the core parents want their kids to be happy, healthy and successful and when we look at healthy like that's one component but happy and successful are very subjective and what a parents version of success is may differ from what the young person's success definition is and if they are working towards somebody else's version of success it's going to degrade the happiness and the health of that person and having open discussions between parent and child or caregiver and young person about expectations around what happy, healthy and successful looks like can open so many doors because a lot of the young people that I talk to they actually make assumptions about what their parents expectations are while my parents will kill me if I'm not a doctor or my parents will never ever let me take a gap year and then I pull the parents aside and they're like oh yeah that's a great idea and the kids just stand there with their mouths open saying is that my parents so having that dialogue is so important and making space for both parties to voice what their definitions are and what their hopes and dreams for the future are because there is value in a parent aspect of it who has life experience that can look at something critically and make some suggestions but that young person they have to live their life they have to be the one that is executing and functioning day-to-day in the decisions that they're making so that has to hold a lot of weight and having that dialogue around expectations can really clear the air and help to get everybody on the same page because a lot of mental health struggles is when there is incongruence between society's expectations or parental expectations and the young person's hopes and dreams so getting it all out in the open can be such a cathartic experience and set the whole family up for success realistically.

Alana Kilmartin - 16:26

Yeah I couldn't agree anymore and I think that careers aren't made alone and there's going to always be ups and downs and I talk about this in the book with the importance of this kind of time when you do finish school of when you like I think when a young person I know this was true for me when a young person finishes school you're kind of a combination of all the influences that you grew up around and I think it's really key for a young person those first few years to really separate out what's my idea and what I really want versus what's something that was based on the people I grew up around the environments I grew up around and the experiences that I had and the sooner that you can do that as a young person the better and that's why I sort of talk through some of these actions of like this is how you can go out and experiment a little bit more and go oh I thought this is what I wanted but actually no I only like this certain specific component of this job that could be say working with people and I think the tough thing is when you're 18 what do you want and you can give an answer but it is probably going to be based on your grades and what you've randomly seen on TV or something like it'll be very like very kind of like loose but you'll be you'll be trying to convince yourself it's all good like that is definitely what I want to do.

But I think that they're real I genuinely mean this it's probably like 10% of people young people that truly know what they want to do and they are those people that will go and do it and they are that person that's wanted to know they were they wanted to work with trucks since I were five years old you know those people that are just they just know and there's no point in trying to persuade them otherwise but I think for everyone else you've kind of got to put your ideas to the test and you've got to go out there and go cool do I actually want this sweet I like it I'm enjoying this job but then keeping in mind that I might change my mind in three years time and that's where I think parents I know my parents were so valuable for that of it's not like a there's a there's a there's path for a career and you're going to get to the end of it you've walked through one particular gate and then you'll never need to change things again whereas if you have your kind of parents being there as a support and a check-in when you maybe do change your mind in three years time and you want to go down a different direction you have a standing board you have people there that are ready to support you and because it's not a linear a linear path I think very few people have that in the career.

Michelle Dittmer - 18:47

I think we we don't do a good job talking about those non-linear pathways in school we have these narratives that says first you do A then you do B then you do C then you do D and then you're rich and famous and whatever but really it doesn't go that way it's a Z Q P X all over the place until you find something and even later in life and I think that we're starting to see parental acceptance of this a little bit more now that parents have had non-linear careers but generations previous even people who were parents 20 years before not even a full generation they had linear careers they graduating University meant you got a job you got a job that you kept for 40 years you got a pension and you moved on and that's just not the world we live in today and I think that everybody needs to update their understanding of the workforce and what career actually looks like today and itis much different than it used to and it's just such a it's such a beautiful opportunity for people who do have lots of interests and who don't know what they want to do right out of the right out of the gate to experiment and to try things out and make more educated decisions rather than like you said picking based on your grades or what somebody said you might be good at.

My first question when people come to me they say I want to be an engineer my first question is what does an engineer do and zero percent of high school students can tell me what an engineer does and then the follow-up is well why do you want to study it and they will say they make a lot of money it's prestigious and good at math and I'll say do you know how many other professions you could do that using those criteria so it's just so interesting to hear you say that as well.

And the other thing that I really liked what you said here we're making a little bit of an echo chamber here is separating out expectations and that's one of the first week activities we do when we engage with our support programming is that have an activity where they actually sit down and they write what is what is mine what comes from society what comes from my family and getting them to piece those out is really eye-opening and it helps to amplify that inner voice that sometimes gets drowned out or we get trained to make it very quiet and it and it helps to train that voice to become louder so we can listen to it better

and follow what our bodies our hearts our minds are telling us is going to lead us to a life where we are gonna be the happiest healthiest and most successful.

Alana Kilmartin - 21:52

I'd be curious I'd be curious for your thoughts on this just around so I think and this is kind of time back in directly into gap years but I think when you're at school you have a very unique relationship to time because you've kind of lived in the system of school which has like a you go to school to one term to pretend free term for you have these holidays it's all very set and you go to school at whatever it is eight thirty in the morning you have you know a bunch of time at this time and you finish at the end of the day and know that that's been a man that was a massive shift for me of like this idea of time of then say taking a gap year where I didn't have that structure of time anymore of I had to be in certain places at a certain time where I was doing these activities for ten weeks and then I have a break and I know I've noticed just through some particularly kind of like young 20 kind of like early 20 year olds of this real rushing like a real trying to get ahead and I mean it makes sense when you look at the context of what's happened in the last few years in particular and probably the generation they've been raised by but a real interesting relationship with time of how can I get to this goal as fast as possible and as much as I think that's a it can be a positive thing it also alarms me a little bit because I think that's something I had to really get used to of like you got to chill out a bit because it's only when you chill out that I think you can really start to get clear on those ideas that are your own and what you actually want and if you're kind of constantly rushing to get to that job to decide on that thing to do all this sort of stuff I think you actually miss out on the beauty of the first even 10 years after school when there are so many opportunities outside of your career to grow as a person to have fun to learn about the world and to me that's been the stuff that's been most beneficial to my career as opposed to what I've specifically done in my career if that makes sense because it's made me so much clearer on the kind of life that I want whereas I think you can you can do a lot of that in jobs but I just don't think it compares to life what are you what are you feeling that time with outside of work?

Michelle Dittmer - 24:05

Yeah I love I love that we when we look at this rushing and this rat race and this kind of like American dream the harder you go the more you work the faster you get there the more successful happy whatever you're gonna be and same with you that it's a scary place and I always will ask people what are you rushing towards like what are you what are you trying to get to why do you need to go fast to get there and they often don't have an answer for that because is it to get a job so you can have a nine to five is it to get a paycheck is it to get to retirement like 40 50 years from now there there's just this yearning to check the boxes as fast as I can but without actually being able to articulate why and I think that is this hive mind the kind of following the lemmings everybody's doing it we are competing against each other we're competing against ourselves we're competing for less spaces less jobs there's a sense of urgency there and progressing grade to grade to grade to grade leaves a lot of students with the notion that I need to continue taking one step forward every year every September I need to take a step forward I need to take a step forward and I need to be on this predetermined step forward because I've never been given the opportunity to make decisions for myself I've just followed somebody else's path and I think that's the gift that we can give people by encouraging them to take gap years or to experiment with their careers is that opportunity to learn how to think for yourself the opportunity to feel that you have a sense of agency in your life that nothing is predetermined you are not the victim of circumstance you are not the victim of the education system that you have power to make decisions that are going to be in your favor to live the life that you want to lead and I don't think that message is coming across through curriculum I don't think it's coming across through a lot of like family value systems and I think that's a really missing piece about what it is to be human is having that control over your life and the agency and the ability to determine your next steps.

Alana Kilmartin - 26:45

it's a bit of like a I call almost like a franticness like of a oh no if I don't do this I'll miss out and sometimes I think this is just make completely like trying to create a theory around this but I think if you look at probably the parents as well and the busyness the rushing the not having enough time I think with a backdrop of that for a young person you're naturally just picking that up of like I've got to be busy even I've got to be you know if I'm sitting down that's not a productive use of my time so I think it's like this whole like combination of things but the I think this is one of the most ironic things about gap years is it's actually one of the things that I think could get you furthest in your career and get you ahead faster is taking a gap year but I don't know if people really appreciate that or the reason why that is so and I think that from a career perspective we kind of think too much about what someone else is going to think of us in our career of like what promotion what opportunity are we going to get that somebody else is going to give me but the funny thing is about careers is it's actually about getting clearer on what you want and where you thrive.

They're kind of two things that I think are really important and if you're talking about wanting to get ahead the sooner you truly get clear on those things is actually when you can start accelerating your career and have that progression because if you're constantly looking for how can I get ahead as in how can I get that next promotion how can someone else give that to me your chances are you're trying to get ahead in a career that you may not even want which means and if you in 10 years time get to a point where you're like I'm not enjoying this anymore I don't want to do it guess what you're going to feel like you're going to feel like you're back at square one mm-hmm but you're going to feel like for all that progress I've made

I've now got to start again and you do never start again in your career you can always take everything you've done with you but I think that that's something that we don't really come back to with careers of it's not about someone else it's not about the external the validation of the jobs that you're getting it's actually around how aligned do you feel with your career that to me is true progress and in a career.

Michelle Dittmer - 28:55

I love that gives me all like the warm fuzzies and the tingles and that's what I want people to be striving for in such a fast-paced busy world where busyness is this badge of honor and we miss out on being human we miss out on relationships we miss out on joy we miss out on fun we miss out on nature we miss out on so many pieces that are truly good for our bodies minds and souls or for the sake of busyness and kind of moving through the rat race which I think is just so fascinating so then what would be some of the tips that you would give for somebody considering a gap year or somebody engaging in a gap year what are your words of wisdom having done all of this research for the book and all of the experience that you've had taking your personal gap years what are those little nuggets of gold of wisdom that you would share.

Alana Kilmartin - 30:00

Yeah so for me I'll use my experience with my first gap year so I remember I can still remember kind of the around the time when I really decided to do it and it wasn't even necessarily that I decided to take a gap year it was just that I had an idea and it was like I had a real connection to that idea and the idea was that I wanted to study I wanted to learn how to fluently speak Italian because I'd studied Italian at school and I was terrible at it like my accent was horrendous I could not roll my r’s it was just it was a train wreck honestly studying at school but it kind of started with how cool would it be to live in Italy and learn how to speak Italian by living there and everything else kind of almost fell into place around that I didn't even necessarily have the desire to go and travel in the other places I just had this real deep connection with this idea of living in Italy.

So I think for a young person there's kind of two almost two approaches to take with gap years where it's the I know I need to take a break or I know I want to take a gap year how do I fill it or there's that there's something I'd really like to do how cool would that be to do now how can I kind of create a gap year around that if that makes sense it's kind of like almost like a just either inside out or outside in and I think that a lot of people struggle with the but I don't know what I do on my gap year and that's like totally like totally natural ride but either way this is like a container of time that you can feel however you want there is no right or wrong way to do it and I think for a young person if there is just something that you go that you can just attach a bit of meaning to of this would be cool to do and that could be as basic as I would love to be able to save money because I'm going to be moving away for university and I want to know that I can go to the pub with my mates and drink beers on a Thursday night do you know what I mean and you've got the money to do that and so I think there has be some sort of almost like an emotional connection with something on the gap year to really bring it to life and if you can start with that you can just keep adding to it and it's like a snowball and then it starts happening.

But really it does all start with that one decision so whether it is I'd love to go and live in Italy I'm gonna take a gap year or I'm gonna take a gap year now how do I want to fill it but you've got to kind of start somewhere otherwise it feels far too overwhelming and I think once you kind of make that first decision it can be helpful sometimes to get your parents involved but not before you're like good about it because otherwise if you are if your parents aren't really pro gap year guess what's gonna happen and if you're not sure you're 50% sure you're probably gonna get convinced not to do it so I think it really starts for the individual to go is this something that's on my heart is this something I'd really love to do and then there are so many races out there especially with what you're doing to then bring that to life but I think unless you have some sort of like an emotional connection to why this would be good and it can kind of easily fall apart those plans almost so I know it's very basic but I think if you can start with something like that it just means that you're going into that year with intention and you've got your guaranteed of getting something out of it.

Michelle Dittmer - 33:06

Love it yeah we I always say there's a difference between taking a year off and taking a gap year there they're two different things taking a year off is just kind of floundering not having a plan a gap year is saying no I'm gonna be intentional and purposeful about this time and I'm gonna put some thought into it and my plan is gonna change a thousand times and that's okay but I'm going in with some goals I'm going in with intention and I'm going to find the opportunities that are gonna move me forward in my life whether that is financially forward whether that is recouping mental health whether that is seeing the world whether that is learning a language or a musical instrument whatever those personal goals for finding career clarity all of those things are well worth the time that you're gonna spend on your on your year to figure more about yourself and the world than you ever would in a two-week vacation here or there or in

between summer jobs there's just so much in the world that we can get out there and explore and I think that people always think of the big things on their gap year I'm gonna do this major travel experience I'm going to learn this incredibly complex thing but gap years are made up of the large and the small that on my gap year I'm going to discover the best queso recipe in the world I'm going to meet five interesting people I'm gonna watch these documentaries on this particular thing that interests me I'm gonna knock off these books on my on my reading list because there's so many ways that we learn about the world and experience the world and I think it's made up of large and small opportunities but speaking of reading lists I think we're gonna add your book to our gap year reading list because it is spot on with what people should be thinking about on their gap time so where might somebody get a copy of this book?

Alana Kilmartin - 35:11

So at the moment best place is to go to my website which is just I will eventually be adding it to Amazon and all that kind of that kind of fun stuff but I've just for your full-time being kind of wanted to get it out there and yeah best place to do it and enjoy it!

Michelle Dittmer - 35:25

Awesome well I will link to that directly in the show notes so anybody that's listening you can just click right on that and check out Elena's book on serious careers we are kindred spirits and I'm sure we will have you back on the podcast sometime soon to

continue this conversation but I think we could talk for more than people want to listen to us so let's wrap it up such a pleasure to have you on the show today thank you so much for having me Michelle all right take care

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